Karyn Paige 00:00
If it feels less scary and safer to let somebody pick the price or to deliberately say, Okay, I’m going to under charge because I, I feel safe or I’m afraid that if I charge more, they’ll say no, I’m afraid of that response. Let’s honor that. And also remember that you have this vision for yourself and for your business, right? You have a number in your mind of how much money you want to make. And when you center the fear of the response, you are like losing sight of this goal that you have for yourself. And so my question would be, if you said, the price that you wanted it to be that you know, you need for you to get to your goal, how would that feel?

Sam Munoz 00:47
Welcome to Making website magic where we empower women to step boldly into their web design, businesses follow their intuition and claim the success they’re worthy of. I’m Sam Munoz.

Karyn Paige 00:57
And I’m Karen Page, where the Tech Wizards behind Sam Munoz consulting on the making website Magic School of Business, where two women here to talk about what it actually takes to run a web design business that’s aligned with your vision.

Sam Munoz 01:10
Spoiler alert, it probably isn’t what you think it is ready to hear about everything from refining your business vision, networking with intention and creating a magical client experience.

Karyn Paige 01:20
Let’s do it. Hello, there, Karen. Hey, Sam, how’s it going?

Sam Munoz 01:29
It’s going great. I am kind of like pensive around this topic. I’m just like, excited to discuss things. And also I have a lot of thoughts swirling in my head, we’re going to be talking about this idea that if you want to make more money, you have to be willing to ask for it. And I don’t know. Like that’s bringing up a lot of thoughts about all sorts of things. So that’s where I’m coming from just my mind is is buzzing this podcast recording day.

Karyn Paige 01:57
Yeah, yeah, I hear you. relatable. You know, and this conversation today is, I think, one really inspired by this through line that comes up so many times in the conversations that we have with women, web designers, about undercharging. Right. And folks know that this is a thing that’s happening, they’re aware. And then it just, it requires a little bit of like unpacking. Okay, well, why? Where’s that coming from? Well, how do we move through that? How do we move to what you really want? And if the thing that you really want is to charge more, to make more money? There’s also an element of like, okay, well, what do you control in this situation?

Sam Munoz 02:41
Absolutely. And we have an entire episode around, like why we under charge in the first place? I think that’s such a good solid episode to listen to, if you haven’t yet, just to understand, like, what is my motivation? Why am I showing up to a call and like wanting to charge less, or whatever the case may be, or I’m nervous about changing my price point or whatever. Because the truth is, and you know, this, if you’re an avid listener of the podcast, we don’t just come here and share strategies like to x your prices. And like, that’s the key to success. What we really believe is that you have to grow in your own mindset in the way that you see money and your business and your, you know, your personal development in order to kind of unlock the ability to charge more and feel confident and have great sales and create that magical client experience. All of that stuff really stems and roots from your own internal growth and alignment. And so I think that that’s kind of like the cornerstone of this topic is just that idea that you want to do something different, right? And that being charging more, let’s say, so what are we going to shift to get us to a place where charging more feels good. And again, I love that you mentioned like, what is in your control? What can you actually do you yourself versus kind of being subject to your situation? So there’s so many ways that we could take this episode, and I think I’m imagining it’s gonna be kind of conversational, because there’s a lot of depth. You said it before, like, there’s a lot to unpack.

Karyn Paige 04:11
Yeah. And it’s not just like a one and done conversation. Like, we can’t be like, oh, yeah, we did a whole episode on like, wire undercharging. And that’s enough, we’re gonna move on to a different topic, like this is a continual conversation. And also, I really believe that, you know, maybe the underlying, like thoughts and feelings about why you might be in this situation could be pretty deeply rooted. Right? And so to honor that, it does require continual conversation. Right? It’s not just like, you make one change, or you take one action, and then everything is perfect. Like, this is the growth this is the evolution, this is the work and it’s not just a one and done thing.

Sam Munoz 04:58
Right, exactly. And honestly, this this topic about like, if you want to make more money, you have to be willing to ask for it is honestly bringing up a lot of past stories of my own like, past situations that I’ve been in, I think I’ve shared about this on the podcast, just like being in a job where I was underpaid as a woman and kind of using. I don’t want to say using that as like an excuse for why I was underpaid. But it was a part of the story. And it is a part of the story. But I’m thinking about that whole situation from a new lens and perspective lately around like, okay, so I was in the interview, right? They told me how much it would be. And never once I mean, I knew I knew when they said how much they were going to pay me. And you know, it’s going to be per hour and all this stuff I knew kind of like, I just graduated college with this great degree. I know, my skills are awesome. I know I could make a ton of money. And yet I said, Yes. I didn’t advocate for myself. I didn’t get any pushback. I didn’t say I’d like to make more. I was just like, sure that sounds great. So now I was thinking about it through that lens of owning you know, my own business now, and going out and selling huge packages and being very confident and just being like, the price is the price. I’m kind of looking back at my past stuff thinking I wonder what would have happened if you did that? Without shame. Right? I don’t feel bad that I did that in that situation. But it’s like, there has been some growth that has happened since that moment. And it’s I’m curious, like, what is it that changed? And I feel like this conversation is kind of just really making me think about that?

Karyn Paige 06:32
Yeah, well, okay, so I see something where I’m like, oh, there’s a huge difference here in that story. And what’s happening now, and you mentioned it, is that you are now the business owner, right? You are setting the terms, right. And so I think a lot of us are bringing in this idea that we’re not in control, we don’t have the agency, we don’t get to set the terms, someone else is always doing that for us, right. And that’s how it can feel like in a discovery call, for example, when you start talking about money, as web designers, we can often feel like, well, the client is calling the shots, the client decides how much they want to pay me. And I just have to say yes or no, there’s no room for conversation or anything like that. But it’s like, I want to back up and say, Hey, you set the prices for the work that you do.

Sam Munoz 07:26
Totally. And you know, what’s actually break making that super duper tangible? Something that I sometimes see on people’s inquiry forms is like, what is your budget? And that is an interesting question, right? To kind of know, like the headspace of the prospective client and all that. But it does make me pause and think are they going to base their price point off of the budget of this person, and they’re going to like adapt their price to what the potential client can pay. And in that it creates, you know, we have a magic minutes, I believe that it’s already come out. And it’s in the free making website, Magic community, if you want to watch it, we talk about like how we can sometimes create like a stratification between us and our clients and make this interesting, almost like employee employer relationship with them where like they’re in charge of us. And I see that coming out in that price dynamic, right? Where it’s like, who’s setting the price who’s in charge of the project, we could probably be pulling a lot of stuff. If you’ve been an employee before, and you went to an interview, and they told you how much you were going to be paid. And you had to say yes or no, right? Like we could be pulling all of that in to our business, instead of taking a moment taking a pause and saying, wait a second, I am in control of this. I mean, that is your right, that is the shift. That’s like someone else deciding and all of a sudden, it’s you. But that can sometimes feel uncomfortable, I think. And it’s almost more comfortable to just say, if I let them decide, that’s a little bit easier for me to stomach and it doesn’t bring up as much fear.

Karyn Paige 08:56
Okay, now we’re talking emotions.

08:58
So we’re talking my language. I’m like, okay, great.

Karyn Paige 09:02
Let’s sit with that for a second. Because if it feels less scary and safer to let somebody pick the price, or to deliberately say, Okay, I’m going to under charge because I feel safer. I’m afraid that if I charge more, they’ll say no, I’m afraid of that response. Let’s honor that. And also remember that you have this vision for yourself and for your business, right? You have a number in your mind of how much money you want to make. And when you sent her the fear of the response, you are like losing sight of this goal that you have for yourself. And so my question would be if you said the price that you wanted it to be that you know, you need for you to get to your goal. How would that feel? I would feel amazing to be like I finally did the thing that I know I’ve been wanting to do and I’ve been afraid. How would it feel to have that money in your bank account and and no, I stopped under charging on this project, and the money is there, and I see it.

Sam Munoz 10:04
And like centering that feeling instead of the feeling of fear.

Karyn Paige 10:08
Yeah, or like what’s on the other side of, of actually getting what you want, which is to earn more money, relief, comfort, safety, bride like feeling like you did something you followed through, right? Like that gratification, that satisfaction. Those are really amazing feelings that are totally available to you. But there’s this thing of like centering, that fear centering that response centering that thing that I can’t control. I just had to sit there for a second with that.

Sam Munoz 10:40
Yeah, honestly, it’s, it’s interesting, because it just again, it makes me think of like, where are we pulling that fear from? And like, where did it come from in the first place? And what is it that we have to shift in order to fully believe because I think that there is a belief shift that has to happen in order to focus more on those positive things versus the fear. And I think that a lot of it is connected to like you understanding and knowing your own value, and you know, what you bring to the table, and just having that confidence coming through as a part of it. I mean, there’s also people pleasing that comes up like, maybe we are, instead of saying, I’m awesome at this, we’re like, what is it that you need? And how do I fit myself into like a little box so that I can fulfill the thing that you need versus like, I have needs, and my business’s needs,

Karyn Paige 11:29
whenever it comes up with like, people pleasing? You know, I’m gonna go with that it’s like people pleasing is a sign that, for whatever reason, you have decided to put someone else’s needs above your own, their needs are more valuable than yours more important than yours. So my question would be, if that resonates with you, right? If it’s more comfortable for you to put someone’s needs above your own, my question would be why? And maybe that is like, actually some deep mindset work of like, you ask, where does that come from? Maybe there’s a time for reflection there of like, actually writing it down. When was there a time where that did happen? To me? How did I feel when that happened? And in what would it go back and tell myself? Right, like to move through it? Because I think it’s important also to just go back to like, the really the topic of this episode, the title is like, if you want to make more money, you have to ask for it. So we already are acknowledging, yes, you have a desire is to make more money, okay? Then there is a certain amount of agency of accountability of responsibility and action that you have to take to make your dream come true. Because people aren’t out here just being like, Oh, hey, web designer, I know you’re charging 2000 for this, but I would love to just pay 3000 for it.

Sam Munoz 12:58
Yes, that doesn’t happen, this whole idea of like, oh, you know, it’s $500. Okay, that’s great. But I’d rather like pay $1,500 People are not just gonna, like, throw extra money at you. I love that you, you said so many good words, like advocate for yourself, what’s in your control, you have responsibility agency, it’s almost like we’re giving that up. We’re like giving that over to our clients. And totally like, I do think that when we do that, it can kind of take away our own responsibility in the situation to advocate for ourselves. And again, like I I think it’s important to acknowledge that like, that may be coming from a variety of different places, people pleasing, the fact that women are typically more nurturing, and we’re typically a little bit more conflict averse, right? It’s like, that is biologically kind of how we are however, if we want all of these things, do we stay subjected to those tendencies? Or do we do something a little different, we can acknowledge them. But also, I think it’s like, if we want to make more money, if we want to go, I’m going back to my past self again. And it’s like, if I wanted to make more money in that moment, I needed to say something, because maybe a man would have said something, right.

Karyn Paige 14:12
I hear what you’re saying. And like, I also just wanted to, like, kind of take it back to like, a really simple essence of it. And like, be like, how do you even know because, like, you kind of have to give it a shot and see what happens. And have a conversation with yourself where you’re like, you know what, I’m just gonna see, I’m just gonna see because I’m really tired of not getting paid enough. So I’m going to try this one time, and see how it goes.

Sam Munoz 14:41
Oh, that’s a really good point, Karen, like, what would happen if like, just the next opportunity that you have you do it differently, right, like you think about definitely, this is important part, right? Thinking about what the value of the project is doing some numbers so that you confidently believe that that’s what the price is and then telling someone that that’s what it Is versus Listen, ladies, I know we’ve all done this, we get ready to send a proposal out. It’s like $1,700. And then we’re like, I’m gonna make it 1500 Instead, and then we send it out like, no. Next time you have the opportunity, either keep it the same or raise it. That’s like a tip to try it. Have you never done that? Karen, I definitely have done that. It’s hard to unlearn.

Karyn Paige 15:24
It’s hard to unlearn. And also like if, again, this whole thing is like, agency, right? Like, I want the women listening to this to feel like Yeah, I do have agency to set my price. Yes. Right. Yes. And also, I want you to honor your clients agency, and be like, my price is 17, not 15. And now it’s up to you, client to figure out how you’re going to make that happen.

Sam Munoz 15:53
Right? Because that’s not even that’s not in our control. It’s none of our business. Like, it is weird. Like in the undercharging process, we almost center their budget, their finances over our own. And the truth is like, we only fully know our own, like money stories and stuff. We talked about this on a podcast episode, right about like, you’re not your ideal client. So like you can’t even really like we shouldn’t even be focused on again, like thinking about the inquiry form, like their budget necessarily, in that way. It’s really just what is the price of the work that I’m doing? And like, how much do I want to make based off of my financial goals?

Karyn Paige 16:29
There’s something that’s coming up for me now to have like the idea of like, who are we centering here, during everybody else, and re centering ourselves, right. So what this is making me think of, more from like, a, like a social perspective is just like, if people are socialized as women, we’re taught that it’s our job to make everybody else feel happy,

Sam Munoz 16:51
right? Like the conflict averse thing, like we just whatever we have to do to make everyone else happy, the people pleasing, like, we’re gonna nurture, right, that’s our role. And then we don’t get to advocate for ourselves in that,

Karyn Paige 17:04
right. And then what ends up happening is sometimes you sacrifice your own happiness. And this is something that comes up a lot is like, you undercharge scenario in this project, you’re not making enough money, you feel really unhappy, you know, it’s a miserable situation, maybe you start to resent it. And then you start convincing yourself that there’s something in it that you can enjoy, oh, I really love their mission. Oh, I really, really love that, oh, they’re not that bad, you know, et cetera, et cetera. So you start, like doing all this, like, reasoning and negotiation, to convince yourself that this is an okay situation? And yet it’s not okay. Because you’re in survival mode. Hon. Right. So that’s the thing is like, at what point? Do you just say, enough is enough? I am worth more I deserve more my, like, my business has needs, let’s put on a let’s put a number on it. Right? My business has needs and it’s to bring in 60k this year,

Sam Munoz 18:04
right? And then being willing to ask for it. And then you know, like taking the action, taking the step versus just saying, Well, I’m gonna put my hands up. And this is all that people will pay me. And there’s no way that anyone’s ever going to pay me that much money. And I guess I just have to work with these clients that I don’t enjoy and do all of the things that you just mentioned, being in that stuck cycle of hating your work and being underpaid, but feeling nervous about not making enough money in the in the future. And it’s just it’s a perpetual, like negative feedback loop.

Karyn Paige 18:36
Yeah. And then my question, my question would be, well, why? Why is it you? Why you gotta be the one who suffers?

Sam Munoz 18:42
Who Yeah. So kind of pulling it back to the overarching theme of this episode about like, wanting to make more money in the first place is something that I find very helpful when I’m creating a proposal. And I’m unsure about the price point. I’m kind of like waffling between a few of them. And there’s things coming up in my mind around like, ooh, do do I want to charge this much. Blah, blah, blah, what I do is I take two prices. And I say, Okay, if they said yes to this one, how would I feel? Okay, great. If they say yes to this one, how would I feel? And then I analyze the two right? So if I was going to charge them $5,000 For this, how would I feel if the project went on a little longer than I wanted it to? If I ran into some hiccups? I think I’d probably feel kind of bummed that I didn’t charge more. Okay, great. I shouldn’t charge that much. What if I did $10,000 Okay, cool. It gives me buffer gives me wiggle room. If they say no, that’s fine, because then I didn’t have to do it for $5,000. That is like the process that I go through in my mind to actually help charge more and then ask for it. Because it is that value analysis. And it’s also like, how am I going to feel if they say yes, because have you ever sent out a proposal for less than you wanted it to be? And they said yes, and you were like a tiny bit. pointed, because you’re like, dang, what if I had done it for the price that I wanted to do it for? That would have felt great. That was kind of what you were saying before about like centering the fear versus centering like all the amazing stuff that can happen when you set your sights on something. And then you do it. You do what has to be done to get there?

Karyn Paige 20:18
Yes. Because when you do everything that you just described, you’re not even giving anybody a chance to say yes to the money that you’re asking for. Right? You’re taking that chance away from yourself and from them. That’s why I’m like this curiosity thing. You’re like, what if? What if something bad happens? But what if something good happens? Yes. And what if they say no,

Sam Munoz 20:44
again, that’s what I when I think to myself, like, at least I didn’t have to do this work for less than it was worth.

Karyn Paige 20:50
Yeah, gentle reminder, listeners, in this dynamic between the relationship you have with your clients, and the money, and all that good stuff. You don’t have to settle. You don’t have to. And that might feel scary, right? Because you’re like, I’ve got this person in front of me, and maybe they’re not going to pay me the money that I’m worth. But at least they’re there. And it’s better than nothing.

Sam Munoz 21:15
Boy, if that doesn’t bring up a lot of like, relationship dynamics and life stories, too, right? Like, it’s all connected.

Karyn Paige 21:23
It is all connected. And this is an opportunity again, for you to honor who you are and who you want to be. If you want to be somebody who charges more. That person is not someone who settles. That’s right. Right. And so when you are facing those moments of am I going to knock this proposal price down to $100. You can choose to sit with the feelings that are there and center that and you can choose to say this is this is an opportunity for me to honor that person that I really see myself as being and how would that feel if I if I just honored that for one moment? And even if they say no, I’m still that person who knows that this is my price. Absolutely, then, hey, not everything’s a fit. Maybe they say no. And they go on and they get a fiver thing for $500 More power to you. Good luck, bless and release somebody over here. Yeah, bless and release, honey. But I’m someone over here who has decided honoring that means not settling or honoring the person that I want to be means I do this.

Sam Munoz 22:33
Absolutely. You know, all of this conversation is making me think about the episode we always refer to which is what is your dream? Because truly until you fully understand what you want in your business and in your life, I think it is very hard to show up and do all of the things that we talked about, until you’re clear about where you want your arrow to align, like how can you honor the person that you want to be if you haven’t spent time thinking about that? So definitely, if you haven’t listened to episode three, what is your dream? Or if you have and it’s been a while, and you want to like recenter yourself on that I think that is so important. So that you can move forward with things like this and go in a direction that you want to and know what the direction is.

Karyn Paige 23:17
And hey, if you’re like, you know what, I’m not totally sure yet what that direction is like my my dream. It’s still a little bit blurry. But I know it’s not this. That’s enough. That’s

23:29
a good starting point. We can work with that. You can work with that.

Sam Munoz 23:33
Absolutely. And we Yeah, and if you are not in the making website, magic free community, this is a great time to join, because we have our Magic Minute series happening inside of there. And honestly, a lot of what we talked about on this podcast, we kind of flesh out in greater detail. In the Magic Minute series, we’re talking about reverse engineering, your financial goals and that relationship dynamic between you and your client. And talking about like you can have anything and I feel like it really couples so well with what we discussed today.

Karyn Paige 24:04
And just wrapping up this episode, if you haven’t heard it yet today, or this week, you’re doing great. You’re doing great. You really are and you’re gonna be okay. So yeah, think about how you can honor that person that you want to be and that is available to you