Karyn Paige 00:00
When do you start thinking? I don’t think my clients will hire me if that gets me into the what if territory? Like, what if this happens? And what if that happens? And what if they asked for this? And what if they asked for that? And what am I going to do the what if I’ve noticed can be very much rooted in like the fear and the lack of the opportunities like you’re trying to over prepare, overcompensate for something that hasn’t even happened yet. It’s like you’re making all of these bets on something where you can’t even guarantee that it’s going to even come up in the conversation at all. I think where that comes from too is not really like trusting or believing that the right opportunities are out there. They’re going to come to you and you’re going to be able to step up to the challenge and, and just do the one thing really, really well.

Sam Munoz 00:50
Welcome to making website magic where we empower women to step boldly into their web design businesses follow their intuition and claim the success they’re worthy of. I’m Sam Munoz.

Karyn Paige 01:00
And I’m Karyn page, where the tech wizards behind Sam Munoz consulting on the making website Magic School of Business. We’re two women here to talk about what it actually takes to run a web design business that’s aligned with your vision.

Sam Munoz 01:13
Spoiler alert, it probably isn’t what you think it is ready to hear about everything from refining your business vision, networking with intention and creating a magical client experience. Let’s do it.

01:26
Hello, Karyn. Hey, Sam.

Sam Munoz 01:29
Happy podcast day. Yes. Today’s episode is about not offering everything as a web designer. And I know we’re gonna go in on this. So if you’re feeling a little nervous about listening to this episode, that’s okay. That’s okay. I understand. We’ve been here all of these things that we’re going to be talking about our lived experiences. But it’s also something that we both know is going to resonate a lot, because we see it with our mentees. We see it with women in our community. We want to offer a lot of things as a web designers. But before we get into that, Karyn, are you cool if I read a review of the podcast? Yeah, of course, go for it. Awesome. So first and foremost, thank you to everyone for leaving reviews of the podcast, as you all know, because you’re probably podcast listeners, leaving reviews actually helps us get found by other potential listeners and women who need to hear our messages. So thank you for leaving them. And if you haven’t yet, please do so we would super appreciate it. And speaking of super, this one says super real business advice. Sam and Karyn do an amazing job sharing what it’s really like to be in business. You’re going to love this podcast and might just be surprised by how much you’ll learn. Which I love that. I love that we are surprising people. That’s great.

Karyn Paige 02:41
Yes. Thank you so much. Yeah, that brings a smile to my face. Genuinely, I hope he can hear it. Okay. So in regards to like offering everything as a web designer? Yeah, I feel like it’s really important to say that this is a conversation that every web designer and developer has had with themselves at some point,

Sam Munoz 03:02
right. And I really like to believe that just because you can do something doesn’t mean that you should, doesn’t mean that you have to, right. There’s that word again, should should should should. Just because you can doesn’t mean you should. I feel like before we even get into the you know the topic and like why we might even be inclined to do that in the first place. Let’s like break down the jargon as always. So what we mean by this, like offering everything so we’re web designers, right? Like that’s, that’s our job title, web designers, web developers, whatever you want to call yourself. But sometimes, there’s this desire to add to our packages, or add to our offers or do something for someone at client. Something like copywriting, branding, things that are kind of tangential to being a web designer, but aren’t necessarily fully that same type of service. And this isn’t to say that you can’t do that, I want to say that right off the bat, you have the choice in your business to offer whatever you want to. But what we want to talk about is why we might feel obligated to offer things outside of our typical services, and the work that we do. So that’s kind of the preface of the conversation. And

Karyn Paige 04:11
I would even like go one step further with that, and maybe consider like all of the things still being within the scope of web design and development, but maybe still slightly tangential, like, even things like offering like SEO optimization, or e commerce or membership sites are like all of those extra levels of web design and development services in addition to like, the branding, or the copywriting or the brand photography, I don’t know, right, something that someone has considered.

Sam Munoz 04:47
Yes. And there’s a reason there’s there are reasons we feel obligated in the first place to offer these things. Right. And I feel like the core of it is that we think we should for some reason, we think that we should say yes to opportunities. When they come knocking, and we feel like we should offer more than whatever it is that our core services are.

Karyn Paige 05:07
Yes. So the first thing that comes to mind when I think of that is quick cash.

Sam Munoz 05:12
Which if you listened to our last episode of the podcast, Episode 13, we talked about not setting your site’s on being an overnight success. And quick cash makes me think of, well, I just want success. Now. I just want that money now. And so saying yes to this, even though it’s like outside of what I normally do, like, I would like that cash, which is okay, on occasion, like, you can decide whenever you want, like, I want a cash infusion, that’s totally fine. But are you saying yes, because you feel obligated to just accepting money because maybe a deeper rooted thing might be that you’re afraid to lose the sale? You’re afraid that other opportunities are not out there for you? Is that why you’re saying yes, even though you know that that’s not really inside the scope of what you normally offer, that’s a good check in.

Karyn Paige 05:58
That is a great check in. It also makes me think of maybe possibly, like wanting to look more capable, like maybe look more like a one stop shop. So it’s kind of rooted in like this outward facing, I can do all of the things I’m capable of being your web design a Wonder Woman look, no further, you found her, which ties in again to like, not wanting to lose out on a potential opportunity or, or a client. Ooh,

Sam Munoz 06:29
that makes me think, honestly, I’ve like pride are in our egos. We think we’re the only ones that could do this thing or like, again, we don’t want to lose the sale, we maybe think that our client won’t hire us if we don’t offer all of the things. But the truth is, and we’re going to talk about this more, when we talk about what happens when you actually stop offering things, there might be other people out there that are better at that particular service, that you can actually serve your client better by not doing it yourself, which is kind of like a ego thing, right? Like you take yourself out of the equation for a minute. And think about the client and what is in the best interest of them. And the thing that they’re trying to create you staying in your lane is probably in the best interest when you can bring someone in who is a brand expert, and you can work collaboratively and build something amazing for the client instead of you feeling obligated to offer branding. And it’s not something that you normally do. And you’re going to charge really low, and you’re going to oh my gosh, this is getting me spiraling, but like you’re going to charge lower because you know that you’re not great at it. And you’re just like, I think that they want me to do and I don’t think they’re gonna say yes, if I don’t offer it. And that is like a very limited mindset.

Karyn Paige 07:39
There’s a lot that comes up, right? You said this thing about like, you don’t think your clients will hire you? If so you start making all of these compromising choices, right? I’m not very good at this. Therefore, I don’t feel like I can charge a lot for this. Which is can be very incongruous. If we’re in Congress, if you’re like, I’m not good at logo design, but I am good at web development. So my web development is going to be this much money, but my logo design is going to be like, less than $100 or something, right? Well, that feels lopsided. And from a client perspective, I’m like, Well, why is this piece less than $100? But this other piece is four figures? Why are they both four figures? Or less than $100? Does it match? When you start thinking, I don’t think my clients will hire me if that gets me into the what if territory? Like what if this happens? And what if that happens? And what if they asked for this? And what if they asked for that? And what am I going to do the what if I’ve noticed can be very much rooted in like the fear and the lack of the opportunities like you’re trying to over prepare it overcompensate for something that hasn’t even happened yet. And you haven’t even been presented with an opportunity for somebody to ask you to provide them with both a logo and a website. So you’re you’re it’s like you’re making all of these bets on something where you can’t even guarantee that it’s going to even come up in the conversation at all. I think where that comes from too is not really like trusting or believing that the right opportunities are out there, they’re going to come for you, or they’re going to come to you and you’re going to be able to step up to the challenge and, and just do the one thing really, really well.

Sam Munoz 09:22
Right. And that’s kind of going back to what I was saying in the beginning. Like I think a lot of us have been there either having this conversation or taking on things because we felt obligated to I think there can be value in exploring other opportunities. Maybe you’re doing it behind the scenes, right? You’re saying maybe I want to offer copywriting because I think it would be additive to my web design skills. I’m actually really interested in creating copies. So I’m going to start exploring that for myself. I’m going to maybe take a course to learn how to be a better copywriter. I’m going to practice and make sample work. I’m going to you know someone is giving me the opportunity to write copy on their website. I’m going to say yes to that opera. Unity, those things are okay. Because you’re really checking in with yourself, right? And you’re saying like, is this what I want to be doing? But where it becomes in conflict and really difficult to move forward with is when you start making those decisions out of obligation and really feeling like, I have to say yes. Because if I don’t say yes, then they might, they might walk away. So I think that there’s value in exploring different types of skill sets within what we do. But we don’t have to say yes, just because someone asked us to do it.

Karyn Paige 10:32
It made me think of like, it almost makes you feel like you’re actually increasing your amount of opportunities for clients. If you’re like, I offer as many things as are available on the Cheesecake Factory menu, like you don’t have to leave. But it doesn’t always increase your opportunities, because sometimes it can become very confusing for your client, because you’re offering them more than what they were even like, looking for, or thought they needed. And so I don’t want to say we all know, but there’s this concept of like decision fatigue. And like, when there’s too many options, people get confused. And they leave. And I’m thinking specifically of one of the iterations of my services back in the day, where it was so cluttered with things that I could give you. When I tell you that I don’t even know if anyone landed on that page, how they would even navigate and find the thing that was what they needed. Oh, yeah. So yeah. And now I’m like, I wish I could go back until Karyn from you know, your one of business set of listing out all the things that you offer, maybe have a conversation and ask them what they need, and then figure out what the best solution right? Yeah, just saying the

Sam Munoz 11:45
thing is right, going back to like, why we do it in the first place. It all is rooted in like that fear. Like that, I think is like the the core feeling is the fear, right? Fear of of lack of money, fear of lack of opportunity, fear of appearing, incapable, fear that they won’t hire you, it’s fear. And so how do we start to shift our mindset? How do we start to show up and stop offering all the things? I would say my biggest piece of advice, is just choose the things that you do say yes to and you decide, when you have the opportunity standing the empowered No,

Karyn Paige 12:23
you said it earlier, too. It’s like sometimes you you take on projects that might not be ideal. So you can gain the experience of whether or not that’s something you want to keep doing. Right. So in service of like evaluating your past work. Sometimes there are things that you do that are less than ideal in order to get you to understand and uncover what is the thing that you want to keep doing.

Sam Munoz 12:46
Yeah, you’re right, that’s like step one.

Karyn Paige 12:47
Yeah, that’s like step one. But sometimes, you also, if you’re like listening to yourself, and choosing the thing that you do want to offer, it actually might be really clear to you, like I have no interest or desire in designing logos. So I’m not going to offer that period full stop,

Sam Munoz 13:10
which I can share that from my own experience. Like, from the beginning, I was like, I know that people are going to want branding stuff associated with their website, I am going to decide that I do not do that I’m not skilled in that area. And I have no desire to be I want it to be like a back end, like I build the website for you and make all the tech stuff come to life kind of thing. And in the beginning, I didn’t even do like the front facing stuff. I worked with a branding person. And then I just, you know, did the development and did the coding of it. And I was very clear with clients. Like you need to come to me with your branding done, because I don’t offer that. And I see this happening with web developers and web designers saying, I’ll offer like a simple text logo. And it’s like, I actually don’t really understand that because it’s like the client could make that themselves. Is that like too harsh to say? Why are we offering and like creating these weird compensations and just odd

Karyn Paige 14:04
it’s not too harsh to say because like we said, these are conversations that every web designer is having with themselves, right? Like we have all had the conversation of should I start offering simple text logos.

Sam Munoz 14:16
Exactly like there’s there’s no shame This is like we’ve all been here. Yeah. And I think it’s helpful to say though, like, I don’t offer these things, these are prerequisites to working with me like you need to have your copy done. You could be written by you can be written by a copywriter, but I don’t write that copy. I need that from you. Because I stand in this expertise

Karyn Paige 14:36
100% so in service of that, right, like so you have been offering all of the things and you’re you’ve made a decision like I’m going to stand in like the things that I choose to offer, not the ones that I feel obligated to offer. You can also choose to just take those things off of your website, take them off of your services page to Come off the menu like the McDonald’s McRib like it was there. And then it was it. You know what I mean?

Sam Munoz 15:07
devastation across America.

Karyn Paige 15:09
Yeah, I always like when I, when we have this conversation about all the things it really does make me think of those restaurants that have menus with spiral bound notebooks because they’re offering so many things like cheesecake factory, or like, I hop and I used to have this expression when I was a kid, I don’t even know where it came from. But it was like, you don’t go to I hop International House of Pancakes and order the fish sandwich. That’s not what they’re known for. That’s not what they’re good at. Yeah, it’s there. But you go for the pancakes, right? You go for the grass, my gosh, yes.

Sam Munoz 15:44
I love that. Take it off the menu, you get to decide. And you know, Karyn and I do this in the business all the time? We do I would How often do we do this? Karyn, like every six months, every year. So we do the refining thing, at least every year. But I think it’s like every six months or so. And we always go in and we say what services have we offered over this past time period? Which ones do we want to continue offering, we decide to take things off the menu all the time. And that is super empowering. It’s also it’s a good check in of like, we’re evaluating our past work, we’re uncovering what we didn’t didn’t like doing what had a good ROI. This is something that we do in our mentorship as well with our mentees as they’re deciding their packages, like what did you like to do? What actually had value in your business? And what do you not want to offer? so important? And that’s how you do it, right? You evaluate, you evaluate?

Karyn Paige 16:33
And you can actually go back to the starting point, right? So we talked about this in the mentorship as well, like this is the first conversation that we have is like what are your values? What is your mission? And then we move on to conversations around identity statements? And like, who do you serve? or What work do you like to do? Right? And so once you have establish those things, when these conversations come up, when these inquiries come into you, you can actually refer back to your own foundational work and say, how does this opportunity align with my values, my mission statement, my identity statement, my revenue goals, the things that I’m interested in? That’s another way where you could just stop offering all the things if you’re like, this stuff is totally out of alignment. Those are the conversations that we’re having, on a very regular basis, in addition to like, what was the ROI on these past projects that we did when we did these projects? Did we like doing them? Was the juice cotton not worth the squeeze on this one, you know, but it also comes from like, starting with your foundation and letting those factors and those components really be like the guiding light in your decision. And that’s where you can really make a very empowered No, because it’s like, oh, this has nothing to do with why I created this business. So I’m actually not even going to entertain the idea of taking this on as a project.

Sam Munoz 17:59
Yes, Karyn, going back to the why. And going back to the mission statement and the foundations of the business is so so important for helping you to stop offering all of the things and stop that feeling of obligation. And so I want to talk about what actually happens when you stop offering everything because I think that there is this misconception that if I stop offering everything, I’m going to lose opportunity. But ladies, that could not be further from the truth, there is so much value in specifying staying in your lane niching in your services, whatever you want to call it, I don’t care what you call it. But instead of offering everything being more specific with what you do offer, I think that something that you mentioned before, so it bears repeating now is it simplifies choices for potential clients. There’s not a bajillion permutations of what you could do, right? It’s like you offer this and this and this add on and this add on. And we work with these, that you know all these different platforms. And we integrate all these different things together. And it really does get complicated. I’ve lived in different countries, I found this very fascinating. And I would walk down the aisle at the grocery store. And there would be like two dressings, right? walk down the aisle pick my dressing, it was great. I came back to the states and I walked down the grocery aisle and there were no joke, like 30 different types of Italian dressing. And I was like, I don’t even know what to choose. And if I was on a website, and I had to decide that I’d be bouncing right off, right, I did have to have that dressing because I like salad with dressing. So there was no choice there. But when it comes to like looking at someone services if they have a bajillion options, and I’m like, I don’t even know what I should be choosing what are they even an expert in? I’m bouncing.

Karyn Paige 19:40
Yep, yep. Another thing that happens when you stop offering all the things is you can actually increase the price point of the services that you do offer. It seems like really counter intuitive, but it’s actually not right. Because when you stop offering all of the things you get Time to focus and do more of the same thing, to where you’re improving your skills, you’re improving your speed, you’re coming up with new ideas on how to accomplish something. So in essence, you’re really developing expertise in like a few certain areas, instead of being average or proficient in all of the everything areas. And that expertise, that skill that you have created over time, is what allows you to say, oh, for this one service that I offer, or for this small list of services that I offer, it’s going to be this price point, because I know what I’m doing without a doubt, I’ve done it a bunch of times, I’ve provided the results over and over again. So it’s like this kind of like loop, right?

Sam Munoz 20:44
Yeah, it honestly makes me think of the fact that it’s not about the quantity, right? It’s not about how many things can you shove on this package, and that’s what’s going to increase the value, it’s about the quality of the work, this is gonna be a very weird analogy, but we’re gonna go with it. You can either, let’s say at $50 to spend, you could get $50 worth of chicken nuggets, and you’re going to get a bunch of them. Or you can get $50 or spend $50 and get this delicious entree at a nice restaurant, right? You spent $50. Regardless, do you care more that you got 100 chicken nuggets? Or did you want like the higher quality meal? Does that make sense? Right? It’s like a quality thing.

Karyn Paige 21:20
It does make sense food analogies are real. In this episode, I’m here for all of it. It really does it really like again, like when you go to those restaurants where they offer like breakfast, lunch, dinner, Chinese food, spaghetti, New York style cheesecake, like all of the things, but none of them are really good. None of them would be as good as if you actually went to an Italian restaurant, or you actually went to a Chinese restaurant, or you went to a place that just serve breakfast, when when you go to like if you’ve ever gone to like a food truck, and they just offer three things. And you know, you’re like, or like, like something like really foodie like really hipstery where you’re like, why is this cheeseburger $19? And why do I have to wait 30 minutes for it. Because they made it fresh, they made it to order, the ingredients are out of this world, like it’s so quality. And they only make one thing. So they’re really, really good at making that one thing. And then you taste it and you’re like this is way better than a quarter pounder with cheese.

Sam Munoz 22:26
That’s why the higher price point makes sense. Because you’re developing that expertise. Because you’re not being a jack of all trades, you become more referral for that particular thing, right. And honestly, you contribute more to the project, I like to think also about the value that the client receives because of these changes that we make you add more to projects, because you’re like, I’ve had an experience. And you might have said this before. But I’ve had an experience with a different client that had this same type of business. Here’s what we did with them. You know, we did this membership site before. And that’s what I do I do membership sites. So I’ve had an experience with this other client. And I know that you know, they had an issue with their login form, let’s circumvent that issue with this project, get it done more efficiently, and also give you a better result. So you can consistently increase your price point, along with your increased skills as well. So it’s kind of like arrows, right? If you have 10 arrows going in a bunch of different directions, that’s great, but you haven’t really moved anywhere. But if you have those 10 arrows all facing the same direction, you can actually move in that specific direction.

Karyn Paige 23:30
Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. It does make sense. And I totally love it. And the thing that you said about like being that person that people refer that type of project to like when you have done something and you’re getting the expertise, because you’re limiting the amount of things that you do, all of a sudden, you are the go to person for the membership site, because everybody knows that you’ve done it. That also allows you to increase your price point, it also minimizes the fear that the opportunities aren’t going to come or the fear that someone is going to say no, because all of a sudden, it’s like, you do this thing. And you’re known for this thing. And the opportunities start coming in because you sounded the alarms and you’ve put the feelers out there and then like that kind of like client feedback loop. It’s like someone who had a membership site know somebody who needs a membership site, because that’s the circle that they run in and they’re like, Oh, you love you love mine. Let me show you who you can get yours from like, it’s this thing. And so you can reduce the fear of the lack of opportunities coming to you because when you stop offering all the things and focus on becoming really skilled and developing expertise in one thing or a few choice things. It’s like the referrals start coming on it.

Sam Munoz 24:41
Right. And that’s not hypothetical. Like that’s what we see in our business all the time. Yes. The other thing that I really like with regards to fear and also skill is that something I’ve noticed as we have tightened up our services is that I feel more confident going into projects. So for example, I really like knowing that we set up websites with a particular host with a particular CRM that we integrate with, right? So we’re talking like very technical for a second. But what’s great about that is when I book those projects, first of all, we can accurately write quotes, because I know exactly how long it’s going to take us, we can have that confidence going into the project, knowing like, I’ve done this before, this isn’t brand new, like I’m not offering the service just because they asked me to do it. This is something that I actually have a skill set in. And I feel good getting in there and doing the work and I have less fear over like, how long is this going to take? Am I going to know what’s going on, you know, am I gonna mess something up, you have a lot more confidence and expertise. And then again, it all aligns back with the price point too. And I just think that that’s a really important point to make. Because sometimes, if we’re doing all of these, like, I’ll just take, I’ll just do anything someone asks me to do that does not leave us in a place where we feel like an expert, and we feel good going into projects. And we feel like, I’m going to wake up today I’m going to do this work. And I know exactly kind of like what to expect and I am going to feel in my power and in my skill set.

Karyn Paige 26:07
Yes, confidence is very empowering. And reduces that fear. And I love that because I can relate even like on a more like kind of basic level, right? It’s like if you if you use WordPress, you’re like, yeah, it’s just WordPress. Yeah, I know what I’m doing. I know exactly right. So I know how long it takes I know what’s required. If somebody came to me and asked me to do Squarespace, I would say I don’t use Squarespace. Like I just don’t. And there’s no doubt in my mind like confidently and be empowered and say, No, I don’t do that. If you want to move over to WordPress, I got you. Right. Okay. But otherwise, let me actually refer you to somebody that I know who does Squarespace. And that’s where we get Speaking of which, oh, yeah, right. Like, are we on the same wavelength here? Like that’s what gets into like the value of having a collaborator network in these situations. Another piece of like, what happens when you stop offering all the things you have this opportunity to refer work to collaborators? And also like, I’m going to stop there. Oh, to stop there. Because I think we need to, like maybe even talk about like, what does that mean? Like? What does it mean? collaborators, right? So I’m thinking in services, like cultivating your network, right, like meeting people, and coming from the perspective of I don’t have to do all the things. Let me start to build relationships with people who do things that I don’t do, or who do things that is maybe a piece of what’s needed. And then they can come back to me, right? So if you know somebody who who does Squarespace only, and they will never offer WordPress, become friends with that person, develop a networking relationship with them. And if an inquiry comes in, for them, that is WordPress, they know that they can send that to you. And if an inquiry comes in for you that Squarespace, you know, you can send that to them. Or if you know you don’t do logos, there’s lots of brand designers out there who do not want to touch websites, the designs, the the logos, the colors, the fonts, right? become friends with that person. And then when you say, Hey, I don’t do branding, you need branding. Before you come work with me. Let me send you over to so and so. And when you have that when you’ve worked with them, come on back to me, and I’ll build the website. One, it’s a great professional courtesy. If an ingredient comes in, it’s unsuitable, instead of just saying, Oh, no, I can’t help you good luck. It’s always a professional creditor disease to say, this is not something that I do. But I know the perfect person for you to work with, let me send you over to her. Here’s her discovery call. It’s so valuable. And also the relationship is hopefully going to be built on reciprocity. And so you can trust that they will do the same for you. And so you’re not missing out on an opportunity, because there’s going to be something along the way that they’re going to send your way. Right. And that feels really good.

Sam Munoz 28:57
Yes. And going back to the idea of like serving your client better to you’re creating a more valuable client experience, because you’re showing that you’re the expert in the space that you work in and you’re bringing in other experts. Honestly, I have noticed that clients feel a lot of gratitude, knowing that a you stand in integrity and say you don’t offer certain services if you’re not an expert in them. And be you have helped them find the branding expert, so they don’t have to worry about going out and potentially having a bad experience because they are working with your referral partner. And I will tell you working with like collaborating with people that you know, is such a joyful experience for the client. It’s joyful for you because you can create your own little workflows like for years, I collaborated with Laila Higgins and we had our own Asana board where we would have our client projects on there. We were each our own individual companies collaborating in that industry collaborator kind of way. And it was just such a nice easeful experience for us, because I knew you know, I knew exactly how she acts. forded her files, like we had our own little systems. And for the client, it was seamless. Talk about a great client experience.

Karyn Paige 30:10
I love that because what I’m hearing from you is that it’s even more collaborative than just sending a referral. And that’s the end of it. It really is like, I’m working on the project with the collaborator, we’re doing our thing over here. And we’re still able to like literally collaborate together as a team, and then give this like, very elevated, very amazing, like final result to the client. And the whole thing is just this great experience overall. And it’s like you’re working with a friend, you know,

Sam Munoz 30:40
you know, I really hope after listening to this episode, you understand your reasonings and motivations for saying yes to things that are not things that you want to actually be offering. And maybe this releases you from that desire to offer everything and truly shows you that in stopping that. And in breaking that practice and in cutting things out and refining your services to the core things that you actually want to be offering. There is so much benefit that awaits you and so much goodness that can come from doing that. And I would just be so curious to know if you decide to do that exercise and refine your services and think through what you offer and cut some things out how that makes you feel and also your experiences booking projects in the future. I would love to know that. So share that with us on Instagram at Hello Sam Munoz. And at Karyn page. You can tell us all about that experience that would be super fun to know.

Karyn Paige 31:37
Yeah, I would totally love that. I want to end this episode on like one thought experiment question. Maybe to like let you like mull over. If you take away some of the things, if you stop offering all of the things What are you making space for to come into your business?